. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. We saw the Dallas Morning News drop TVC story like it had Ebola germs on it despite knowing that parents were not being warned of a pedophile in their midst. Returning so soon to the limelight reinforces the idea that it really is all about Mark. I assumed that it was just me and 25,000 other people had no issue. . How much do James River Church employees make? There are plenty of people within the Christian faith that have their own issues with mega churches but people outside of it especially do. It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. It was especially appropriate to hear last night since our current sermon series is on the topic of Worship. 33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. Bob, I loved your comment. I suspect that process would take a bit longer with Driscoll hes a bigger mess. Covenants, ruling elders, etc. Some are stronger and more capable of speaking out and as we feel able to I believe that we must. Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling the perception of what I think about womenentirely my own fault. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. I read your comment and have thought about this a lot. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. @ LT: How they hold their hands, pat their hearts, stomp their feet, fall to their knees, wipe away fake tears, etc is all taught in classes. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. If others havent heard this song yet, give it a try and see what you think. You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. 20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. If Mark Driscoll is going to wanna manipulate his 501(c)3 Church audience to give him a second chance, hes gonna havta try harder. Members are guests? Considering the level of corruption I impute to mixing with Driscoll, Im not wondering much. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such a bully in the name of Jesus Christ. I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. Imagine that. to confer grace through the sacraments. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. Galatians 5:22-23. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card. Until that flaw is named and claimed, it is reasonable to expect this kind of thing to happen again. When and where did this start? There is great comfort to be found in that. I view it as wisdom. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? Mars Hill Church was ending its relationship to Agathos. There was no light show. Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. When you add atmosphere teams to further manipulate peoples worship experience that is too much. re: Lindells article. "It was clear to me that Mark's attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose of Hillsong Conference, which is to see people leave encouraged in their own spiritual journey.". The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. It is definitely not where all leadership and vision is deferred to one man, and it is definitely not authoritarian. there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. Your facts are a bit off, beginning with the meaning of Che. I am no fan of his, but there are some big holes in your acvount of his life. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. Let me look it up. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? I only write the truth about Gateway in order to warn others, never to discourage anyone. My Comment was Deleted it is so sad it breaks my heart. here is a bit of what i could type out as he was speaking, would love to see a transcript of it instead of having to listen to it though. In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. But there is an interesting bit in Acts 9 right after Paul was doing a lot of debating/bold speaking in Jerusalem, the Hellenistic Jews want to kill him. "It is possible for someone who has been a life-long alcoholic to stop. There is no uncertainty in that. He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. I know, that sounds horribly arrogant but I lacked it in buckets for years. Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. He told me he will vote against repeal. He set himself up as King of Acts 29 and operated with no accountability at Mars Hill. He sought out those that God sent Him to minister to in remote places away from crowds. @ sam: (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. His Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and Jesus never asked a single person for a single penny. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? I do not for one minute believe they are suddenly open. I wish just one person would have spoken up sooner. When you go to these posh country clubesque entertainment centers their #1 priority is to get visitors connected and plugged in. I see inviting Driscoll anywhere in the same context as some dumb kid wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. Your comment about magic words reminded me of Simon the Magician in Acts who was so popular and had all kinds of attention because of his magic performances. I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). You will hear the Velcro bar/connect center mentioned several times in each service. This weekend GW is also doing Steven Furtick spontaneous baptism which are executed to the letter like Elevation. I hope I am wrong. All 6,115 words of it. what is a person supposed to do? It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. Again. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. They didnt fail. Mark Driscoll should not be a preacher ever again. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? The last time Robert Morris met and greeted anyone as part of his service he still had his braces/retainer on. Do your part with the people in your life, give to your church, beyond that have a global heart for widows, orphans, the poor and those in need, I am going to ask you to support some widows and orphans in Africa, We have an orphanage, we have a villagemembers of Mars Hill have actually moved there to take care of widows and orphans.. (Jesus is a pastor?) 1 point: homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, and Christians should vote for repeal. This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. 4 Ways of Discerning If You Have Left Jesus Behind. Six months for Driscoll does not represent later in life, give him another ten or twenty years. I met the pastor. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed. Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. I also told him that before I wrote this story, I transcribed his sermon. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. Even in the Roman Catholic Church, the obvious structure does not prevent sin or other problems, so I dont think it is a matter either of too much or not enough structure making us fall short of perfection. I agree that if the object is to fill seats and keep the money flowing in, then Driscoll and the others are doing a great job. from dictionary: This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. One co worker attends and stated that they requested to see W2s and that he tithe accordingly when he was inquiring to become a member. Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. Click below for times and locations: Learn More Stronger Men's Bible Study 6am on Tuesdays | March 7th - April 11th, 2023 | All Campuses In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. people have said to stay involved in churches to keep them encouraged to follow the Lord and speak up if they are going away towards money and corruption, that is no longer even possible, you can get shunned slandered and prob threats to your life for speaking up anymore. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. i was looking for my link to Rob Smiths orphanage and found that he has recently posted a great response to those propping up Mark Driscoll. This was not due to the kindness of the elders (who told us we could not leave because we were under church discipline). I hope others will join in at places like this blog and help shed light on local megas in their area. Glassdoor provides our best prediction for total pay in today's job market, along with other types of pay like cash bonuses, stock bonuses, profit sharing, sales commissions, and tips. I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. Of course BHouston can know about MDs statements in the past 5 minutes of Googling will turn up Wenatchee The Hatchets meticulous documentation, screenshots and all, and Warren Throckmortons extensive documentation, the mp3 of the infamous sermon in Scotland, etc pp. I am more interested in why the pew sitters fall for it and focusing there. Or that they were called to be what they are. It is profoundly ironic that false teachers twist this particular scripture in an abusive way to their advantage just so that they can continue abusing. Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. Right now i am in the second week of trying to help sort out a custody battle between two very wonderful young people. I think Christians make a huge mistake when looking at patterns of spiritual abuse, deception and tyranny as whether or not they are criminal according to our laws. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books. Please fill me in Numo. I think what became public is enough to realize they are not safe, not mature but toxic and have been all along. The reason for this is that he wept, his remorse was written on his face for months and he still is remorseful, he didnt once make any excuse for his behavior, he accepted responsiblility and reached out to the family of the victim. They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. like i said it went away from that and i didnt look into why. But that does not restore the trust in the relationship, and trust is the blood of good relationships. Oh no. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. These Pentecostals keep insisting that almost everything written on the internet about Mark Driscoll isnt even close to the truth. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. The emails we received were similarly written. Where are all the former higly paid speaking gigs that were constant and kept his calendar full with travel? A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. Not me, not you, and definitely not Mark Driscoll. vengance is where you make someone pay. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. However, with such a massive back door spanning 15 years, I still think more exiles should be speaking up for the good of the current and future naives. Forgive him? Thats why places like TWW are imperative. Sopy In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. This is what the giving unit is looking for, not God. he smiles and there is love in his heart. They really believe that God has anointed the leaders to lead them. https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/. But you need to make sure you hear the second truth. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html. I had never heard someone talk like that. probably just my opinion, and I overgeneralized. He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. But Christians are under the New Covenant and the NT calls Christians to expose false teachers, not facilitate their cover ups. For more information about James River Church and to get connected, click the link below! Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. ". Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him). So, that is why I think it would have been wise for Driscoll to remove himself from the limelight and assume a servant posture. there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. Wonder what else is in the Acts29 playbook that we havent seen yet! rather than come in glory he came in humility. So work harder for the state and your comrades who do not meet their quotas. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. You are so spot on. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. . The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. But over time became desensitized and swept up in group-think so as to eventually accept it as acceptable in the 21st century. Whenever I hear Mark Driscolls name, a passage keeps popping in my mind Beware of Alexander the coppersmith he has done us much harm. Driscoll and his potty-mouth preaching made an everlasting mark on 21st century church in America. Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. He had founded the church in 1996. In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. (KY3) - James River Church responded Monday to complaints after social media images show little social distancing and few masks at its Christmas celebrations. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. These leaders are lacking even a basic level of discernment or judgement. If so you may be onto something. Prayer Requests This stuff was high on the why we are how we are list back in the day. He is a draw. I'm not sure I find that expansion of "serious sin" cheating? I noted in my comments on the petition that Driscoll still hasnt repented before all and specifically to the people whose lives he damaged, such as former Mars Hill elder/attorney Paul Petry, a godly, decent man. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. It genuinely didnt occur to me that he was just a good, decent man who might care about Gods children regardless of their zip code. You cant speak in tongues? This can be anything from praying for people over the phone to working in the Online Campus studio. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. Im trying to get people to understand it because theres a whole lot of stuff thats out there thats being said, much of it is just just simply not even close to truth. He looked at me kindly and slightly amused and said, thats okay. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. Why am I concerned? @ Nancy: Having a large following for a while, being insulated from most of reality, produces this result. Gramp3 and I were recalling today the first time we ever heard Driscolls name brought up in a church. Oops, last comment of mine was supposed to link to this comment. This guy had his audience eating out of the palms of his hands. When Robert brags about lunching with Greg Abbott, golfing with George W Bush or being Rick Santorums spiritual advisor, it makes me feel ill. So as long as Driscoll can provide entertainment and ratings, Pentecostals will continue to book him. I have heard Driscoll in person.. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. Now I am working on something for Monday. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. The hyper romanticized cinematic version of the uber cool Che trumps the reality of his bloody terrorist tactics and the horrors and oppression that his brand of communism inflicted on others. We have been led by God to support another ministry. Almost all of them pointed to Gods leading. It certainly looked like they had been coached on what to say. Not here to argue about this, just pointing it out. I am thinking that is no doubt true, but Saul/Paul was also a religious activist who had double crossed his former sponsors in Jerusalem who had given him credentials to go seek out believers for persecution. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. All he has to do is say "I repent" and it has to be forgiven and forgotten or we are the meanies. helpful or even hopeful in terms of my eternal afterlife. As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. I would say he was a tyrannical charlatan that used people for his own purposes and claiming it was of Christ. The City of Ozark has an established process in place to investigate, enforce, and educate violators of the ordinance, the department said before stating that it does not condone the flouting of health mandates. one passenger died. They worked hard to get where they are and make the assocations that would help them. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. Its kind of like that movie Winters Bone where the communities are closed to a fault. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. http://mercysurvivors.com/2014/03/06/mercy-ministries-peru-309k-and-no-cherry/#more-1348. Its easy to be friendly, humble, attentive, polite, , to your peers and to your superiors. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. Hillsongsfounder, Brian Houston, released a statement saying he did not want the 30-minute interview with Driscoll to distract from the larger five-day conference. It is possible for somebody who has a cutting tongue and a big mouth to stop. He was an abusing thug. A cynical, weary part of me says theyll never change. And so on. CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. (stephen the shepherd? they get tired of hearing his kind words they shove it into his mouth. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. District. have caused me to go into a major identity crisis, what i thought were well meaning however slightly misguided churches and some of the right wing christian patriots are not who or what i thought they were. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: In other words, his behavior did change. . I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. Feel sorry for him instead as a burned out shell without compassion. The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. They use lots of hair gel and work on their golf tans. Lindell's sermon is further entwined with politics because he mentions Springfield Mayor Bob Stephens. Whatever is going through Marks head, he is bent on getting people to listen to him again and to be heard. starting to act animalistic the resistance is increasing, how will stephen respond?. And he actually dismissed several of them as how Sissies or men who wear product in their hair act. Its a measure of arrogance. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. While a decreasing quota meant less pay. CCHD encourages individuals who were present at the high-capacity event over the weekend to monitor for symptoms of COVID-19 for 14-days from the event date and seek medical attention if symptoms develop., Church officials defended themselves in a statement issued to KYTV-KSPR, noting that despite what the images show, we take seriously the safety and health of those who attend our services.. Mark pretty much mandated participation in weekly Life Groups plus you had to use their social media platform The City to stay connected. GW used to require people to take a class and understand the commitment but they couldnt keep their salvation numbers up without the spontaneous element that include giving away free clothes and smart little swag bags for those willing to dunk for the cameras. signed, Still Looking, first i wasnt refering to anything lindell wrote but only his intro for mark driscoll because i have never read anything he wrote and dont want to. He has not shown himself capable of being trusted with that sort of ministry in the first place. They are used to being believed no matter what they say. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. I have read both accounts that Che was short for Chancho and also a play on his habitually calling everyone che which is slang for pal/friend etc. After describing the crucifixion of Jesus, Mark Driscoll asks: Who has attacked you? Its the same game he has played. In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? THANK YOU! -Katelyn Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. Unless he completely revamps his life and his teachings, hes going to leave damaged lives in his wake. So true. I said some decent things, but one can and probably ought to take that with a grain of salt. since we are all clergy??? "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". At a certain level they wanted leaderless teams who would function by consensus. The name Che is a nickname, short for pig (chancho), for a reason. I really appreciate your insights Lydia. We need to be just absolutely rigorously adherent to things that we know work. Driscoll was never really qualified to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the first place he proved that time and time again by his un-Christlike behavior in word and action. Come on Lindell, Morris, Kellogg and Johnston. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. Thats right, the head pastor no less! It shows also in our perception of ourselves and others when we still have areas of sin. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him.